Melanie McDonald at 2014-03-30 17:15:12:

What an epic journey through Aristotle's "Poetics" over these 44 weeks, and thank you so much, Scott, for being (as always) a fantastic mentor! In this last section, as Aristotle lays out his arguments for this battle of the genres, it seems to me that when he says the concentrated effect of tragedy's structure is more pleasurable, that pleasure may be attributed not only to unity of action, but also to intensity - particularly intensity of emotion, which I think must rise out of that unity of action - with regard to its impact upon the audience. I think that Aristotle's emphasis on the necessity and importance of structure will be one of the main lessons I take away from this reading series. And I agree, Scott - what a delightful Sunday ritual! A couple of books I'd like to suggest for future reading series would be "Three Uses of the Knife" by David Mamet or "The Art of Dramatic Writing" by Lajos Egri, and I'm eager to hear what other books people will suggest reading as well. Many thanks again to everyone here for this wonderful learning experience!

pgronk at 2014-03-30 18:36:18:

Two statements in this chapter stand out in my mind. The first one, as noted by Scott, is that "Tragedy... reveals its power by mere reading. " -- it has to be on the page. Although 'only' the blueprint for the movie, a script has to stand on its own and tell an interesting and complete story. The second statement is: "Moreover, the art attains its end within narrower limits for the concentrated effect is more pleasurable than one which is spread over a long time and so diluted." Or as better rendered by the Robert W. Rhys translation used by the Tufts University Perseus Digital Library project : "Another point is that it attains its end with greater economy of length. What is concentrated is always more effective than what is spread over a long period..." Which brings to my mind the dictum of Ludwig Mies van der Rohe that applies to writing as well as to architecture: "Less is more." And the words of the French writier Antoine de Saint-Exupery, " A designer knows he has acheived perfection not when there nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Thank you for the opportunity to discuss "The Poetics", Scott. It was a pleasant opportunity to "re-friend" writers on tragedy and Aristotle like Friedrich Nietzsche and Martha Nussbaum as well as an incentive to make some new ones, particularly Daniel Mendelsohn and Camille Paglia. Finally, my suggestion for a group read is "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell. I know that you have posted many blogs referencing Campbell's ideas, discussed the "Hero's Journey" monomyth that is based upon his seminal book. Why not a "Writer's Journey" back to the primary text?

Jennine Lanouette at 2014-03-31 00:40:22:

I don’t see Aristotle here as being an apologist for Tragedy so much as a defender and advocate. He is addressing the biases of his time that relegated Tragedy to a second-class art form in relation to Epic poetry. Interesting to see his words echoing into the 20th century with defenses of movies over stage drama and now into the 21st century with defenses of television drama over movies. Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose. Aristotle upholds the superiority of the dramatic form by pointing out that it has all the elements of Epic while adding two more – music and spectacle – that offer particular pleasure. Further, the effect of the words is not dependent on being performed. The effect can be as vivid when simply read. But most importantly, through its concentrated form and unity of action, Tragedy can achieve the ideal effect of evoking pity and fear that leads to catharsis. Imagine, says Aristotle, if Sophocles’ Oedipus was stretched out to the length of the Iliad and the Odyssey. The effect would be weak and watery. He then allows as how Homer’s work actually employs unity of action in an episodic sort of way, such that it is “as perfect as possible” (within an inferior form). Hence, he concludes, since Tragedy has all these advantages over Epic, and so perfectly fulfills the function that is singular to its form, it then follows that it is the superior of the two. I, however, can’t help feeling that Aristotle rather anticipated by a couple of millennia today’s serialized TV drama in his reference to the Epic’s “many such parts, each with a certain magnitude of its own.” So perhaps it’s not so much a matter of things changing while staying the same as it is a matter of things finally coming around full circle. The episodic arrangement of concentrated unities of action in serialized TV drama has actually just brought us back to Homer and his Epic poem, but with the added pleasure of music and spectacle. Who knows, maybe if Aristotle were alive today, he would be a fan of Breaking Bad and Mad Men. Thank YOU, Scott, for this very fun, engaging and stimulating journey back to the ancient philosophers and classical dramatists (and back to the graduate school texts and notebooks). I hope you do decide to continue. And, although I have my reservations about the overwhelming dominance of the Hero’s Journey model of story structure these days, or perhaps because of that, I think pgronk’s suggestion to take on The Hero with a Thousand Faces is probably a good one to stay consistent in the practice of examining the primary texts. And to Melanie and pgronk: Great to spend these (how many? 44?) weeks with the both of you as well! Along with everyone else who from time to time chimed in. See you in the next one!

Scott at 2014-03-31 04:23:16:

Melanie, I've had several people recommend Three Uses of the Knife, which I've never read, so that is a possibility. Egri's book is something I have read. It is, of course, one of the requisite books for anyone who gets into screenwriting, so that's another one. Two I had been considering: Conversations with Wilder, the book of interviews with Billy Wilder conducted by Cameron Crowe. And Making Movies by Sidney Lumet, which among professionals I know is highly rated. Let's see what others suggest. It's funny and perhaps from my religious upbringing, but I have a real affinity for doing a weekly series like this, almost like a ritual or 'sermon' from on high we get a chance to interpret. Weird how habits from our past stick with us...

Scott at 2014-03-31 04:28:51:

prgronk, I had thought of The Hero with a Thousand Faces, too. In fact, I found a place online where you can download it as a PDF, so readers could access it that way. I have a strong inclination here because there are, I suspect, a lot of people out there claiming to have read the book who have not, combined with the bastardization of The Hero's Journey, reducing it to formula which is the furthest thing from JC's intentions. However we are talking about a 2 year series. It is an academic book with LOTS of content and BIG IDEAS. I mean literally, it could take us months to get through the first chapter, there is so much good content there. Finally if I could find a .txt version of the book so I wouldn't have to type out content, instead copy/paste, that would make a difference in my decision. Thinking... Thank you for your participation in the Poetics series!

Scott at 2014-03-31 04:33:33:

Thanks for your post, Jennine. You have been stalwart in this series, along with others a huge help in analyzing Poetics from a more informed position than myself. Your observation about Aristotle and Breaking Bad or Mad Men, I suspect you are right. Re The Hero with a Thousand Faces: Your comments echo what I said to pgronk. Hollywood is afflicted by thinly veiled shadows of The Hero's Journey which is why I hear critiques of it sometimes. That drives me crazy because JC never perceived it as being a formula. So perhaps going to the primary source material could offer a corrective to the misinformation and misuse of THJ. But as noted, it would be a HUGE undertaking literally years in the making. Thinking some more...