Ron,

I'm not as familiar with the Graphic Novel approach, but here's my intuition on this:

Do both. Any time one has options, if at all possible, all options should be exhausted.

On one hand, while you are polishing the screenplay, the graphic novel might take off. If there's interest in a film, version, then you are more than halfway there. Why not take advantage of having a draft ready when they come knocking for it? No reason to let some other scribe take the reigns as an adaptation.

On the other hand, while you work out the graphic novel, perhaps you get to a draft that's sell worthy. There's nor reason to not have a graphic novel work in conjunction. That notability of interest in your script might support a deal with getting you published.

Let's remember this, both industries are always about money when it comes down to it. More so than giving the fans good material. It's the awful truth. So, with that in mind, a property is far more marketable if it can sustain itself across multiple mediums. I guarantee a studio or a publisher will be interested in a property that can make them more money than if it were only one medium.

Best of luck to you.

Additionally...

Wouldn't you want to see it in both formats? It certainly sounds like you do. Have at it.

(and yes, I see the typos and errors in my first post)

The advantage of going the GN route first is you could potentially maintain a greater degree of control over the material should Hollywood come calling - an executive producer credit, perhaps a deal whereby you get to write the first draft. That's assuming you retain all audio-visual rights when your graphic novel gets published - a lot of comics companies use work for hire agreements to secure IP. Indeed, comics and graphic novels are a remarkably cheap method of obtaining and promoting IP with an obvious visual storytelling component.

The crucial question to consider is what level of craft skills and experience you already possess as a writer of graphic novels. Storytelling for GNs has very different demands to writing a screenplay. You wouldn't expect a novice to write a great screenplay, would you? So why do some screenwriters think they can turn their hand to scripting GNs, despite never having written for the medium before?

If you can't draw -- you need to find someone that can to a level that blows people's minds.

Otherwise you're better off as a screenplay.

The only thing less read than screenplays are scripts for comics with no art. The only thing turned down faster than a shitty screenplay is a comicbook with mediocre art.

I've been asking almost the same question, although I'm closer to pursuing the "do both" path than your question seems.

You will have more control over seeing a graphic novel to fruition, at the potential sacrifice of a larger audience.

My specific question is: how does a writer in this situation find an artist with which to collaborate? Where would you even start?

I started off working toward a graphic novel 2 years ago. But soon became frustrating with my own drawing inadequacies (since i wanted to draw majority myself). The 'frame by frame' writing format was never too appealing to me.. then i stumbled onto "Go Into The Story" or something like that, just a little screenwriting site, no big whoop :)... And have never looked back! woot woot (yes i just woot'd).

But I also read a post by someone once saying how of all these mediums, screenwriting has a longer, more institutionalized system. And that interests a wannabe like myself. So Graphic Novel is on hold and Screenwriting has become my vehicle of choice.

I want to preface this comment by mentioning that when it comes to intellectual property law, I'm expressing my understanding of what my manager and lawyer have told me. It's not my area, and there's a reasonable chance I got something wrong.

Having said that, James said:

"The only thing turned down faster than a shitty screenplay is a comicbook with mediocre art."

To which I ask, turned down by who?

In my limited pretty close to first-hand experience, the craft with which a comic is made has (or at least CAN have) little to no impact on Hollywood's interest in optioning and developing it, esp. if it's sufficiently high concept. I believe Cowboys & Aliens was optioned for film twice based only on the stated intention of its legally recognized owner to produce and publish a comic with that name, then was optioned a third time after the comic had actually been produced, printed, and distributed.

On the business side of the equation, one thing comics do offer writers is a pre-existing intellectual property they control, meaning that in the event someone in H'wood is interested, there's a chance for two paydays: one for an option and another for a screenplay based on that property.

I've supposedly been developing one of my comics as a screenplay--I say supposedly because it's a page one re-envisioning that bears only the most passing resemblance to the comic it's "based on." Because the comic has actually been established/published, if the producer I'm working with decides to take off, I still co-own the underlying property with my artist collaborator. While that producer could try and claim some rights to the version of the property I developed with him, there's nothing to prevent me and my collaborator from trying to get the property optioned elsewhere to be developed as a film independent of the producer's input on the current screenplay.

Another producer is working with me and a co-writer to develop an idea based on what we initially saw and wrote as a comic--but which was never produced as one. Because the underlying property isn't established, my manager tells me that, because of his input developing the screenplay with me and my co-writer, the producer is pretty much permanently attached to any film version of the project. And if I and my co-writer wanted to produce and publish a comic based on our original script (which again in this case is vastly different from the film version being developed), we'd need to get the producer's OK to do so. Which sucks because the comic script is mind-bogglingly awesome, but there it is.

Turned down -- By comicbook publishers.

Image and Dark Horse primarily, as these are the two major outlets to self owned and created comicbook series.

If you want to self publish that's a different story. But again, that's no different than funding a feature yourself. There's no need for approval. No quality control.

You bring up Cowboys and Aliens which has been backed by Platinum Studios since 2004 (May have been even earlier). In fact, much of the art on Platinum submission packets was art from Cowboys and Aliens.

As long as I've known about Cowboys and Aliens there's been awesome artwork associated with it.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/401061076_f6b360c0e6.jpg?v=0

"Turned down -- By comicbook publishers."

Image and Dark Horse primarily, as these are the two major outlets to self owned and created comicbook series."

In the case of Image and Dark Horse, you're definitely correct. But there are a number of wannabe Hollywood player comics publishers that will publish comics that uhm, aren't known for the craft with which they're produced. As a general rule, those guys will sew up media rights to as many properties as possible by offering comic creators a chance to be published--and many creators, desperate to get a foot in the door of the industry, will take them up on the offer.

"You bring up Cowboys and Aliens"

It's the comic-to-film property with which I'm most familiar.

"which has been backed by Platinum Studios since 2004 (May have been even earlier)."

Much earlier, pre-2000, I believe. And it's not backed, but owned outright by Platinum, as all creative work performed on the comic that I'm aware was was on a work for hire basis.

"In fact, much of the art on Platinum submission packets was art from Cowboys and Aliens."

Yes, but it wasn't art from the Cowboys & Aliens comic. I believe the image you linked to was eventually used for a variant cover, but the image used on the majority of the print run was a different artist's interpretation of the same basic idea. The art in the Platinum submission packets was developed to pitch the property as a film prior to the comic being completed--before the comic had even started to be drawn by the credited artists. And the interior art was of variable quality, Dennis Calero's five page introduction to the book being the artistic highlight, IMO.

But I'm splitting hairs for no good reason here. I agree with your main point re: Image and Dark Horse, I just wasn't clear on how to read your initial post.

"Yes, but it wasn't art from the Cowboys & Aliens comic. I believe the image you linked to was eventually used for a variant cover, but the image used on the majority of the print run was a different artist's interpretation of the same basic idea. The art in the Platinum submission packets was developed to pitch the property as a film prior to the comic being completed--before the comic had even started to be drawn by the credited artists. And the interior art was of variable quality, Dennis Calero's five page introduction to the book being the artistic highlight, IMO"

Pretty sure you're proving my point of how valuable artwork is to the process of creating a comicbook.

Most of these pitches require at a minimum 5 pages of sequential art and a cover as a sampler of what the comic will be.

It may not be created in full yet (that's kind of the point of doing it like that, you're hoping that they'll want to back it and you can make the entire thing).

If I had to wager a guess -- those 5 pages you like the best -- that's what they presented to Platinum saying -- this is what our comic will be.

Just to illustrate how powerful good artwork is in the creation of a comicbook --

-- doesn't that single picture illustrate a whole heap?

Not a single word. And yet, don't you know the tone, and feel of the story? Don't you know who you are rooting for? Can't you imagine the possibilities--?

I'm going to repeat that for emphasis.

Can't you imagine the possibilities?

That's what any good pitch should do. If you're pitching a comicbook, I'd start by getting an image like that.

I found this interesting.

"But there are a number of wannabe Hollywood player comics publishers that will publish comics that uhm, aren't known for the craft with which they're produced. As a general rule, those guys will sew up media rights to as many properties as possible by offering comic creators a chance to be published--and many creators, desperate to get a foot in the door of the industry, will take them up on the offer."

I don't understand what a comicbook creator gains from this.

The doors to Image and Dark Horse are (for the most part) wide open. They're constantly on the lookout for new content. Something new to publish and take a chance on. But they do have quality control.

As a comicbook creator, I'd use that as a benchmark. I wouldn't settle for less.

On the flip side, self publishing is relatively dirt cheap. For a run of 10,000 copies of your book you'd be looking at shelling out $10,000.00 dollars. That's an extravagant first run imo for any first time comicbook creator.

Compare that to film, where that isn't even the food budget on most films. Even low budget films are (for the most part) in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

If these comicbook publishers aren't offering something in those terms -- We will publish X for Y and the rights to the IP, I don't see what you as a creator are gaining.

You can also start at a much smaller run and try and build a fanbase that way. The irony of doing it this way, is that if your comic ever does become a hit, your first several issues that were on such a limited run become valuable. Not to mention it raises the incentive of people to buy TPBs (or GNs if you want to call them that).

I just don't understand what you gain if you are involved with people who are just dicking you around.

"The doors to Image and Dark Horse are (for the most part) wide open. They're constantly on the lookout for new content."

Yes and no. I can't really speak to Image, but Dark Horse is a tough nut to crack, and I'm talking about just getting through the door, never mind getting them to publish something (and my understanding from talking to a couple editors there is that these days they generally want to take control of media right for what they do publish.)

"Something new to publish and take a chance on."

I don't think North American comics publishers, certainly not bigger ones like Image, Dark Horse, or IDW, are any more interested in taking a chance on something than your stereotypical Hollywood studio exec.

"On the flip side, self publishing is relatively dirt cheap."

Provided you're the artist as well as writer and you're at peace with never making a profit on the comic, it is relatively cheap. Not as cheap as putting something online, which is looking more and more like the more effective method these days.

"For a run of 10,000 copies of your book you'd be looking at shelling out $10,000.00 dollars. That's an extravagant first run imo for any first time comicbook creator."

Oh yeah. The vast majority of self-published comic books (and comics does have a 40-odd year history of successful, talented, and respected self-publishers--it doesn't bear the stigma it tends to in the prose publishing world) will be lucky to sell 3,000 copies through the direct market (one might be able to move a few more copies through the book market, but to the best of my knowledge, the bulk of a self-publisher's sales will be through the DM, online, or by hand-selling the book at conventions.)

To be continued because I'm long-winded.

"If these comicbook publishers aren't offering something in those terms -- We will publish X for Y and the rights to the IP, I don't see what you as a creator are gaining."

Well, to clarify a little, the bulk of the publishers I was referring to seem to offer a 50/50 split between publisher and creative team, with the publisher gaining control of the IP, exploitation of which will also be split 50/50 with the creators. The problem with that comes in situations when, for instance, a publisher decides to give some or all media rights to a creator's creation away for nothing to try and get on a producer's good side (I've seen this exact thing happen more than once, incidentally.)

What the creator gains in some cases is a comic book with their name on it, published by someone else. The publishers will frequently sell the idea that the book they publish will serve as a portfolio piece, which the creator can use to show bigger name editors and publishers.

And there used to be something to that. Not enough to make it worthwhile for the creators (I now realize), but up until a few years ago, an editor was more likely to impressed by a physical book published by someone other than the creator than a self-published work, and they'd take a self-published work over a webcomic in terms of what they considered "real" comic creating experience.

On the editorial side, that attitude has shifted fairly dramatically in the last five years, to the point where one's probably better off publishing digitally and printing a trade collection up if/when there's enough material and demand for such a thing.

But there's still a perception among many, especially long-term, fans, that the only comics that count are ones printed on paper and available in their local shop. And seeing as a good portion of would-be comic book creators also happen to be hardcore comics fans, the notion that the only real comic is a printed one available through Diamond Comics (which distributes 95+% of the direct market comics) is hard to get past.

So they sign wfh agreements and sign over the rights for their IP in exchange for the chance to have a book in their hand (and frankly, a lot of them have to wait a long time even to get that, if they ever do).

It's really difficult to explain the unknown, desperate comic book fan/creator's mindset to someone who has any clue how IP management and esp. the Hollywood system work, at least not in terms that will make sense. But for a lot of creators, getting that book in hand drives nearly all their decisions, right up until they've got the book, it sells 500 copies, and they discover the publisher's no more qualified to represent their work than they are.

Continued again. Sorry.

"TPBs (or GNs if you want to call them that)."

I prefer TPBs, for a variety of reasons far too boring to get into here.


"I just don't understand what you gain if you are involved with people who are just dicking you around."

I believe it was Steven Grant who said something along the lines of "I never knew a creator who signed his rights away at 20 who felt good about doing it at 40." The simple and unfortunate truth of the situation is that the majority of new/unknown creators are not businesspeople and don't understand what having a book but losing control of their property really means. They are so desperate to get any kind of creative credit and exposure that they'll happily ignore, if not outright insult, more experienced creators who try to convince them it's not a good idea to undervalue their work. They often blind themselves to the fact they're getting dicked around, to the point that they become their publishers' de facto publicists, defending those who are taking advantage of them.

And so the big wheel of the independent comic machine keeps grinding out not-very-good comics which not-very-good publishers then try to sell, usually for not-very-good deals, because they aren't so different from the creators they're exploiting. The only major difference is they're desperate to get a producer credit on a film and rake in a bundle of cash.

Oh crap. I didn't realize James had two comments.

"If I had to wager a guess -- those 5 pages you like the best -- that's what they presented to Platinum saying -- this is what our comic will be."

I can state with utter certainty that this wasn't the case.

Nobody presented Platinum with the idea for Cowboys & Aliens. It was "created" by Platinum's owner, Scott Rosenberg, who hired a number of creators to flesh out and execute his basic idea.

Platinum did, in fact, take pitches for comic properties from unknown writers--which made them almost unique for the first few years of the aughts. Those pitches did not require artwork--in fact, many did not consist of more than a couple paragraphs at the time they were acquired. The vast majority of the dozens, if not hundreds of comic properties acquired by Platinum were never completed as comics, and I know of at least one that was completed with art and lettering that remains unpublished.

On the upside: Platinum, unlike many of the IP farms masquerading as comics publishers, did offer creators some kind of monetary compensation up front; they were better placed than most such publishers to represent properties in Hollywood; and their executive editor for several years, Lee Nordling, made it a point to try and teach new creators the craft of comics.

"Not a single word. And yet, don't you know the tone, and feel of the story?"

To a degree. However, the original comic script was eventually decided to be a little too dialogue-heavy, comedy-oriented, and reminiscent of Wild Wild West (which was a plus up until that film bombed.) Another writer was brought in to reformat the project to a different page count and size, revise the dialogue, and remove much of the original script's humour. By all accounts, the movie version is going to be even darker and hard-edged.

"Just to illustrate how powerful good artwork is in the creation of a comicbook -- doesn't that single picture illustrate a whole heap?"

Sure. But in practical terms, the image was intended less to sell a comic book than a movie version of a theoretical comic book.

I'm not saying art isn't a critically important element of a comic. It absolutely is. I'm just saying that the specific C&A example you pointed out was aimed squarely at Hollywood producers, not at a comics publisher, editor, or reader. It didn't need to be, because the owner had the resources to publish the book if no one else would (ultimately it was published through Image affiliate Top Cow), the editor was already on-staff at Platinum and had orders to make C&A a priority, and sales to comic shops were assured through some unusual (for comics, anyway) methods, specifically a very low price point ($5.00 for a 100+ page TPB), "marketing" funds supplied to key stores (which allowed at least some stores to acquire multiple copies for no cost to them and then give away for free).

"I prefer TPBs, for a variety of reasons far too boring to get into here."

You are my new favorite person.

Anyway, it's funny how you agree with me, by posing things as an argument.

As example, the 10,000 copies was more about the 10,000 dollar pricetag -- as I mentioned that's an extravagant run for most first time creators. In a sentence you didn't quote -- I even said you probably won't have a run of more than 1000. But compared to the cash many people are putting down for a first time film, it's peanuts.

Totally agree with you on Platinum. Except, they were asking for art, as well. The first tier was asking for something similar to Lee's logline(s). And if they liked it they'd ask to see samples.

They were also purchasing all rights to the IP. Which neither Image nor DH were doing. They also weren't interested in publishing, but rather packaging things as comicbook entities which could be sold to movie studios.

Are you really arguing that an assignment from Scott Rosenberg head of Platinum is the same as you or I putting together a comicbook package from scratch?

He sold Malibu for an assload of $$$ to Marvel, before taking MIB and making it a successful franchise. I'm not sure your really comparing apples to apples.

As for the creator rights thing, even after your explanation -- I just fail to see what you are really gaining.

You can create your own publishing entity and sell and market your own books for very little money in the grand scheme of things. And you get to keep control of your IP.

If they aren't publishing your books in some real tangible form -- what are you gaining? It seems to me you are just giving everything away.

Just be careful, and know most people are out there to screw you and get things for free. It's the nature of Hollywood. Oh, that and most everyone is full of shit. But that's a diff story.

BTW -- the term graphic novel is for the incredibly gullible. But you know what I'm talking about :). TBP all the way!

“Anyway, it's funny how you agree with me, by posing things as an argument.”

I’m not trying to argue, honestly—just clarify, something my rambling style is probably not well-suited for.

“I even said you probably won't have a run of more than 1000.”

Missed that completely. Sorry.

“Totally agree with you on Platinum. Except, they were asking for art, as well. The first tier was asking for something similar to Lee's logline(s). And if they liked it they'd ask to see samples.”

There were a bunch of different ways they’d deal with things. If someone came to them with a finished comic (as was the case in a book they published called, I believe, Alien at Large, and another they didn’t, Only Hope Remains) that was sufficiently high concept, they’d certainly acquire it if the price was right.

But those projects were exceptions (l suspect largely because creators with a finished comic weren’t eager to sign over the rights for what Platinum was offering.)

Far more common was them picking up a property based on a pitch or possibly an expanded proposal if they wanted to better understand how the creator saw the story. On those properties they did acquire, they’d theoretically handle finding an art team to do the eventual book. I sold them six original properties based on everything from a logline to a five page outline—but none of them came with an artist attached from my end of the equation.

The third common situation was them hiring writers on a work-for-hire basis to flesh out and develop comic stories based on an idea developed in-house that could consist of as little as a couple paragraphs to 20+ pages. I did a fair amount of work on a half-dozen of those projects as well. The primary differences on those contracts compared to the ones for independently originated properties were the nature of the screen credit on the film version (front of film “based on” credit vs. end of film “graphic adaptation by” credit) and there was no mechanism in place for creators working on inhouse properties to regain control of their work. The independently created then sold to Platinum projects gave Platinum a long term of control (effectively indefinitely if they felt like expending low five figures to extend their ownership at lengthy intervals), but they did have a reversion mechanism. One of the properties I sold them has since come back to me; most of the others will likely do the same in a couple years.

“They were also purchasing all rights to the IP. Which neither Image nor DH were doing.”

Image Central books are solely creator-owned, for sure. I don’t know what the situation was at DH in the past, but these days I’m reliably informed that they do try to lock down control of IP rights if at all possible. If you aren’t an established creator with a built-in fanbase, odds are they won’t publish your book unless they can control the IP, too.

TBC

“Are you really arguing that an assignment from Scott Rosenberg head of Platinum is the same as you or I putting together a comicbook package from scratch?”

No. I was arguing that the specific examples of Cowboys & Aliens artwork you attached to the comic weren’t attached to the comic but were key art for a film pitch. Or I was trying to, at least.

“As for the creator rights thing, even after your explanation -- I just fail to see what you are really gaining.”

This one’s easy: nothing worth having. It just takes a lot of first-time creators awhile to realize they’ve been taken in by snake oil salesmen publishers. I wasn’t trying to argue that creators in that situation were getting something of any value compared to what they’re giving up, just trying to describe the mindset that allows them to be taken advantage of. A lot of would-be creators just don’t want to do the legwork when it comes to the printing, publishing, and marketing end of the equation. Some smooth-talking publisher who’s ACTUALLY HAD COMICS SOLICITED IN PREVIEWS (never mind how much they actually sold or whether they were actually printed and sold at all) comes along and says “Do this with me and you’ll get tons of good exposure and we’ll all make a ton of money”, the desperate or gullible creator gets stars in their eyes, and the next thing they know they’ve got a book printed by a company nobody in the business takes seriously that’s sold a couple thousand copies (if they’re lucky—certainly not enough for them to see any money on the back end in the vast majority of cases), which for many feels like enough. At least till a few months till a couple years go by and they realize that they’ve expended a lot of time and energy creating something few people read and they no longer own for free.

“You can create your own publishing entity and sell and market your own books for very little money in the grand scheme of things. And you get to keep control of your IP.”

I agree. But like I said, there’s some legwork to be done there and a lot of creators don’t do it, for whatever reason.

“If they aren't publishing your books in some real tangible form -- what are you gaining? It seems to me you are just giving everything away.”

Well, they say they’re going to publish your book, and you believe them, mostly because you want to because you want a book published so badly, and then you sign a wfh contract which gives them control of the property but doesn’t commit them to actually doing anything with it if they don’t feel like it, again because you don’t realize what the terms entail, even though a minimal google search would tell you.

It happens. A lot.

Over at BleedingCool.com today there’s a story about Bluewater comics wanting to purchase all rights to a painting from an artist. Their offer: two copies of the comic it would be the cover for. This particular artist didn’t take the deal, but enough creators would that companies like Bluewater manage to keep going.

“Just be careful, and know most people are out there to screw you and get things for free. It's the nature of Hollywood. Oh, that and most everyone is full of shit. But that's a diff story.”

One of my favourite sayings is that the big difference between H’wood and comics is that in Hollywood you get screwed by people with millions of dollars and in comics you get screwed by people with thousands of dollars.

“BTW -- the term graphic novel is for the incredibly gullible.”

Yeah, it’s a marketing term created largely to convince snobs they’re reading something other than a comic book that’s been rendered effectively meaningless. I know of a guy who had a client that asked him to produce a four panel graphic novel. “You mean a comic strip?” said the guy.

“No, no, not a comic strip. A graphic novel.”

“A four panel graphic novel?”
“Right.”

“And you’ll pay my standard rate?”

“Yes.”

“Fine. A four panel graphic novel it is.”

"the big difference between H’wood and comics is that in Hollywood you get screwed by people with millions of dollars and in comics you get screwed by people with thousands of dollars."

That's funny.